- Jesse Prince on Marty Rathbun coaching him
- to commit perjury,
among other crimes
http://groups.google.ch/group/alt.religion.scientology/msg/c8e211b244cbb073?hl=fr&
From Jesse Prince's testimony in the Lisa McPherson civil
case, all ofwhich is available at:
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/lisa_mcpherson/bob/
- Q And
why -- what gave you, as a member of the Church of Scientology, the authority to do
that, under the -- under the rules and regulations or
the policies of the Church of Scientology ?
-
- A I've
seen many exhibits turned into this courtroom concerning policies on intelligence and attitude.
And I guess the overriding factor is this: Scientology
comes first. Scientology comes before the
individual, comes before the individual's family, comes before
our current
-
- page
83
-
- justice system or whatever laws. Scientology
-- I mean, it's even a high crime to speak at -- in Scientology's
laws, it's a high crime to come before a court and
give testimony without first Scientology being -- knowing
completely what your testimony would be, even if it had nothing
to do with Scientology. So
they have different rules and a different standard to operate on. I mean, you know,
is it legal ? Is it right? Those are different matters.
But that's --
-
- Q Well
--
-
- A --
the --
-
- Q --
when you were in this position, reading these intelligence reports, do you know that if
you got a credit report of anyone that had not given you written
permission to get their credit report, that that was
a federal crime?
- A You
know, at the time I did not. I personally did not. Because again, this is an area
where I was kind of cutting my teeth on, so I was being walked
through it and shown how things worked.
-
- Q Who
was walking you through it ?
-
- A Several
people. It started out with David Miscavige kind of bringing me in the loop
on this kind of thing and showing me. And the person
who would normally be involved in these kind of operations would
be Marty Rathbun, so I spent time with him, learning about these
things.
-
- page
84
-
- And -- and Vicki Aznaran, who had previously
had a lot of association in the Guardian's office, which
later became OSA. She was very familiar with the pattern
and things that they do. And her husband, Rick Aznaran,
who was my junior. He was a person that I used for the physical
security of -- to ensure the physical security of the Golden
Era base of Gilman Hot Springs, which eventually spread
to other organizations. But that's another person
who had experience.
-
- ---
-
- Q Where
you talk about the role of David Miscavige and Mr. Mithoff and Marty Rathbun and
your prior history in RTC. Do you remember that?
-
- A Yes.
I do.
-
- Q And
in that affidavit you have come to the conclusion that the three of them just
decided to sit around and not do anything about it and end
cycle Lisa McPherson?
-
- A Yes.
If she dies, she dies. If she gets better, she gets better.
-
- Q Now,
did I help you write that affidavit ?
-
- page
346
-
- A Not
at all. This affidavit came about because -- from studying all of the evidence. And
I spent months studying this to come to this conclusion.
This conclusion I came to was my personal opinion, I stated
it as such, based on the experience I have within that
organization.
- And
the thing that -- that became alarming to me to even point me in this direction is
the amount of information that is missing, the amount
of things that -- that isn't there that would clearly show
like what her state of mind was based on what she was saying.
All of that is missing. Which means cover-up.
Which means something is hidden. Why is something hidden ? In
my mind, similar to what happened in Wollersheim. This is information,
if gotten out, could be harmful or damaging to Scientology.
And Scientology, the survival of Scientology, is first and
foremost in the mind of any Scientologist, even beyond their
own lives.
-
- ---
-
- BY MR. DANDAR:
-
- Q All
right. Now, why is it that paragraph 34 -- based on your affidavit, why is it that it
alleges that David Miscavige, outside of anyone else, would
be the person who would have given this order to end cycle ?
-
- A Well,
I think what my affidavit actually says is -- is David Miscavige would have sat there
with Ray Mithoff, with Marty Rathbun, the people that
meet, to --
-
- to
0512
-
- make sure that the flaps within Scientology
that are a threat are dealt with. I think
what I said there was that those three people would have gotten
together and decided --
-
- THE
COURT: Ray Mithoff and who else ?
-
- THE
WITNESS: Marty Rathbun.
-
- MR.
DANDAR: R-a-t-h-b-u-n.
-
- THE
WITNESS: Would have sat there with full knowledge
and information of what was going on with Lisa McPherson.
And instead of letting her be taken to a hospital,
would have told these people to just let her stay
there, and let's see what happens here.
-
- Let's continue.
See if we can, you know, finish the introspection
rundown. Don't put her on any line where she can
tell a story about what's happening to her. In
other words, let her die. If she dies, that's what
happens.
-
- BY MR. DANDAR:
-
- Q Now,
what if the -- based upon your tenure and your experience of working with Mr. Miscavige,
Mr. Rathbun, Mr. -- I've forgotten the third name.
-
- A Mithoff.
-
- Q Mithoff.
-
- page
513
-
- If
Mr. Mithoff and Mr. Rathbun said, "No, no, no. We have these reports, that she needs to --
she's not doing -- she's getting worse. She
needs to go to the hospital. Send her to the hospital,"
and Mr. Miscavige says, "No. We're not going
to do that," out of those three, who prevails?
-
- MR.
WEINBERG: Objection. This is just rank speculation.
-
- THE
COURT: It would appear to be so, except I believe
he indicated, back when he was at RTC, these same people
were there ?
-
- MR.
WEINBERG: No. Mr. Mithoff was in CSI. Mr. Rathbun
was not in RTC. I
-- I mean, he --
-
- BY MR. DANDAR:
-
- Q Mr.
Prince --
-
- MR.
WEINBERG: -- at the time --
-
- THE
COURT: I'm going to allow it, because I know what the
answer is. I mean --
-
- BY MR. DANDAR:
-
- Q Mr.
Prince, who was in RTC when you were in RTC, at these meetings?
-
- MR.
WEINBERG: No --
-
- page
514
-
- A The
only people that were in RTC were myself and Vicki Aznaran. David Miscavige was the
chairman of the board of Author Services, a for-profit corporation
that was L. Ron Hubbard's publishing company. However,
that meant nothing in relationship to who were the
principals of Scientology, who were directing -- directing
the actions of Scientology as a whole. And the
people that were doing that were David Miscavige, myself, Vicki Aznaran,
Mark Yeager, Mark Ingber, Lyman Spurlock.
-
- THE
COURT: Was there a majority vote taken ?
-
- THE
WITNESS: There's no such thing as a vote in the
Sea Org, unless you're deciding on a quality of food,
in Scientology.
-
- THE
COURT: If you disagree on a decision, who made the final
call ?
-
- THE
WITNESS: If you disagreed on a decision -- if you disagreed
with someone that was above you, you would be
sent for correction to straighten out your --
-
- THE
COURT: Look, if you folks are sitting around trying
to decide something -- you and all these people,
you said, were kind of a -- there -- and you disagreed;
you know, you said, "I think this should happen,"
Ms. Aznaran said, "I think this should happen,"
David Miscavige said, "I think this should happen,"
who made the call?
-
- THE
WITNESS: Ultimately the person who would have the authority
and everyone would have to follow would be Mr.
Miscavige.
-
- page
515
-
- THE
COURT: So he -- he made the final call.
-
- THE
WITNESS: Yes, he would say, "Okay. Yeah. This is
how you do it."
-
- ---
-
- [This bit is cross examination by the cult's lawyer Weinberg,
or as I preferred to call him at the time, Whineberg.]
-
- Q Is
there a particular reason why, in all these accusations you made against Scientology,
you didn't say, "And they told me to perjure myself
in 1989 in the Yanny
-
- page
735
-
- deposition"? Why didn't you
do that ?
-
- A Well,
the fact of the matter is, Mr. Weinberg, again, like I -- I was damaged goods
during that time. I had gone through a lot of stress, a lot
of -- Mmm -- decisions to change my life. Mmm,
didn't have certain -- you know, a certainty on where I was
going with my life. I felt pretty hopeless.
- But
let's talk about the perjury here since this is the subject here. What I have
testified to before concerning preclear folder destruction
is the fact that because these preclear folders of Mr.
Wollersheim were being asked to be produced and ultimately
the whole folders were turned over, the order to destroy the
folders came from Mr. Miscavige with Mr. Rathbun present,
myself, Vicki Aznaran. It became my responsibility
to report when that fact was done. I
myself was not the person that destroyed the preclear folders or had -- or pulped
them. Rick Aznaran is the person, along with another current
Office of Special Affairs, Charlie Earl, rented a truck,
took these folders; Vicki Aznaran -- Lawrence Wollersheim,
possibly Bill Franks, Gerry Armstrong and others took them
to the recycling plant, and when Mr. Aznaran came back, he showed
me a liquid bottle with paper on -- with the pulp paper
on the bottom. So
technically did I know about it ?
-
- Yes.
-
- page
736
-
- Technically did I do it
? No.
-
- Q Oh,
I see.
-
- A But
I sanctioned it and I went along with it.
-
- Q So
perjury -- the question was: "Were you ever involved in the destruction of PC folders
?
-
- "Answer:
No."
-
- That
is not perjury because you have somehow justified in your mind that you really
weren't involved because you didn't actually pull the
switch ? Is that what you're saying?
-
- A No,
I'm saying that I'm not the person that actually did it myself, but I knew about
it. And reported about it.
-
- Q Is
that --
-
- A I
didn't stop it. So, you know, the fact of the matter is I won't beat around the bush
with you, Mr. Weinberg. Right here I was
not being truthful.
-
- Q Now,
did somebody tell you to perjure yourself ? Is this something that somebody told
you to do? Or you just did this on your own ?
-
- page
737
-
- A No,
I was told to do it. Mr. Earle Cooley, who was lead counsel for the Church of Scientology
at the time, wanted me to do it. Mr. Rathbun,
who was -- was again and always responsible for church legal,
wanted me to do it. Mmm, I was being a good Scientologist
and protecting Scientology.
-
- Q
That
is amazing. So when this started out you didn't have any recollection of the Yanny
deposition, you don't remember having even signed the
errata sheet, and now you have this clear recollection that
-- that Mr. Cooley, a lawyer who is on the board of trustees
of Boston College -- or Boston University, and Mr. Rathbun
told you to lie? Is that what you're saying now?
-
- A Mr.
-- Mr. Weinberg, I mean, because we are talking about this, because you have
presented me with documentation, we've discussed it, I
think I do have a mind and I can have some recollection about
this. And I'm just telling you what happened here. Mmm,
there are other things that I have written specifically about my relationship with
Earle Cooley, and because you have all of those E-Mails,
I'm sure you have those in evidence, too. That is
not the only thing that I thought was unethical that happened
with Mr. Cooley, irrespective of where he sits.
-
- Q So
the way it works is, if we can catch you at it and if we can show you a video or show
you some testimony where you perjured yourself, then it's
an indiscretion, essentially, you sort of caught me.
Is that the way it works?
-
- MR.
DANDAR: Objection, argumentative.
-
- page
738
-
- THE
COURT: Sustained.
-
- ---
-
- BY MR. WEINBERG:
-
- Q Okay.
-
- "Answer:
So you know from the limited time that I was there in Religious Technology Center
myself, I know that -- you know, there wasn't much
about the Flag Service Organization I didn't know about and
also had responsibilities for to make sure the
whole thing ran smoothly, and the person that I reported
to was certainly the -- ultimately was Mr. Miscavige."
-
- That
is what you said ?
-
- A Correct.
That doesn't mean to the exclusion of Mrs. Aznaran who was my direct --
-
- Q No,
I didn't -- wasn't suggesting that.
-
- A Okay.
-
- page
754
-
- Q Now,
if you'll go to -- by the way, did you also report to Marty Rathbun back then?
-
- A Yes.
Yes.
-
- Q If
you go to Page 52 of the Yanny deposition, please --
-
- A Was
that 52, Mr. Weinberg ?
-
- Q Yes,
52.
-
- A Okay.
-
- Q Look
at Line 15 through 19.
-
- "Question
--" were you asked these questions and gave these answers under oath.
-
- "Question:
Back in this '84, '86 time period did you ever have an occasion to report
to Marty Rathbun ?
-
- "Answer:
No.
-
- "Question:
Did you ever report to David Miscavige ?
-
- "Answer:
No."
-
- A Right.
-
- Q Were
you asked those questions, did you give those answers ?
-
- A Yes,
I did.
-
- Q Were
those truthful answers ?
-
- A No,
they were not.
-
- Q So
you perjured yourself ?
-
- A Correct.
-
- page
755
-
- THE
COURT: I honestly don't want you to use the word
"perjury." Perjury is a term of law.
-
- MR.
WEINBERG: Okay.
-
- THE
COURT: Lie would be fine.
-
- MR.
WEINBERG: Well, I have had judges tell me not to
use lie because it is inflammatory.
-
- THE
COURT: If that were in front of a jury, that may
be true, but for me in this particular proceeding
perjury is a term of law.
-
- MR.
WEINBERG: Fine.
-
- THE
COURT: If you say is that a lie, that would
be fine.
-
- BY MR. WEINBERG:
-
- Q Was
that a lie ?
-
- A Yes,
it was.
-
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