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J: Now after [L. Ron Hubbard] passed, I
was there when Mary Sue Hubbard was made to sign an agreement -- I do believe it
was $100,000 -- to relinquish any kind of claim on the copyrights, or
trademarks, or bank accounts, or anything to do with the Scientology fortune. I
was part of a 12 or 17-man team of people that just invaded her house, and was
all a pretty cordial affair. She didn't want to sign the damn thing. Lawyers
were there, David Miscavige started screaming, "You are going to sign
it !"
F: He was screaming at her, "You're
going to sign this document" ?
J: We were all there, browbeating
her
F: 12 to 17 people
?
J: Yeah, all in Sea Org uniforms. All
in cars everywhere, just going in there and overwhelming this poor little old
lady.
F: Would you say that you were an
intimidating presence ?
J: Beyond any question.
F: Would you say that Mary Sue Hubbard
was coerced into signing an agreement?
J: It s beyond any question. As well as
Arthur, I was there when he signed it too. He got $50,000.
F: He got $50,000. Did they have their
own lawyers there who looked at the documents ?
J: No, no. They had no representation.
All the Scientology lawyers were there, and they would just sit down, this is
what the lawyers say, "sign here."
F: Were they allowed to read the
documents ?
J: Yeah, but I don t think they knew
what they were reading.
F: So the Scientology lawyers were
there. Did they act like they were representing Mary Sue Hubbard or Arthur in
advising them in any legal way at all on the document ?
J: No.
F: What lawyers were there
?
J: I believe Larry Heller.
F: Anyone else
?
J: Not that I specifically recall, but
that doesn t mean that no one was there.
F: So, Larry Heller was there in this
incredibly coercive environment. Were these men, these 12 to 17 people, in Sea
Org uniforms ?
J: All men, except Vicky
Aznaran.
F: Were they big men
?
J: Big men. Lyman, Norman, Marty,
me.
F: Was there any kind of spoken or
unspoken threat that if she didn't sign this document there would be trouble for
her or her family ?
J: Trouble for her, yes.
F: What was said
?
J: Going to get sec checked, going to
get auditing, going to get this, ethics, whatever. She blew up, she said, "No, I
m going to sec check you to find out what the hell you re trying to do to
me."
F: So she was threatened with a
security check, and ethics, which meant that she would have to work through
conditions and do all kinds of menial, manual labor ?
J: No, just have someone sitting with
her in her house. She wasn't very functional. She had a couple of Scientologists
who watched her every move and reported to David Miscavige every day about
her.
F: They lived in her house
?
J: They lived in her house and reported
on her every single day.
F: They were writing reports on her
condition ?
J: Every single day.
F: Was she sickly
?
J: Very sickly, fragile
woman.
F: Was she on medication
?
J: No, I do not believe that was
allowed.
F: So, she was sick, she had
Scientology people spying on her before these 12 to 17 people came.
J: During and after. It was all set up.
They told what she did every moment of the day. We took her to the mall today,
she bought this today. Neville was reporting to David Miscavige every
day.
F: Personally
?
J: Personally.
F: Were they worried that Mary Sue
Hubbard would? What were they worried about ?
J: That she wouldn't sign exactly what
they wanted her to sign.
F: So, she had no choice
?
J: None.
F: 12 to 17 large men in uniforms
standing around her ?
J: ...telling her she's got to do
it.
F: Other people were telling her to
sign it ?
J: The people were telling her to sign
it was Norman Starkey, David Miscavige, the attorney just handing it to her
telling her this is the release form, or whatever. I never said a word when I
was there, Vicky never said a word, I don't think Marty spoke to
her.
F: Why were 12 to 17 people in uniform
necessary ?
J: Because David Miscavige said we need
to go in there. Mark Jaegar was there. David Miscavige said we need to go in
there and show a unified group of people from the church that we're running
things and it's got nothing to do with her and she is not entitled to
anything.
F: Did he say that?
J: Yes. I'm paraphrasing pretty much
what he said. David Miscavige said she is lucky to get what she's getting. Ray
Mithoff was there.
F: Was he going to convince her that
she wasn't entitled to anything?
J: Yeah. And, I'll tell you the moment
when she actually relinquished and signed the document, they pulled out their
ace in the hole. She was actually kind of sad that he [her husband, L. Ron
Hubbard] died, because they had been separated and hadn't talked for a long
time. Actually, they hadn't been talking that much since she had gotten out of
jail. She asked Ray Mithoff with tears in his eyes if he had said anything, or
asked about her before he passed. He said, "No, he didn't mention your name." At
which point after the meeting he reported with glee how he knew that had really
got to her, just to know that she's a piece of shit that he never said anything.
At that she bowed her head and they just stuck the papers underneath, like this,
and she started signing.
F: She had no representation. How much
time was she given to think and read, and think about whether she wanted to sign
and waive her whole inheritance, her children's inheritance.
J: A couple hours.
F: Alone, she was left
alone?
J: No, never alone. We stayed there for
2 hours.
F: For 2 hours you, David
Miscavige ?
J: Norman Starkey...
F: ?just kept talking at her, they
screamed ?
J: they screamed.
F: Loud?
J: You could hear it outside with the
door closed.
F: Screaming at her to sign this
document.
J: And telling her, "We're going to sec
check you, and you're out of ethics" and all of this.
F: They threatened her with all these
punishments in Scientology?
J: Right.
F: And the lawyer sat there and watched
this.
J: Right.
F: Arthur went through the same
thing ?
J: He was much more submissive because
he had been gotten to earlier. He escaped, ran away from the church, went to
Hawaii. They had PIs track him down. He just wanted to be away.
F: What do you mean "gotten to
earlier" ?
J: Like I say, he wanted nothing to do
with Scientology any more, nothing to do with the Sea Org. He just wanted to be
a normal person. He escaped, dyed his hair black, assumed names, all this stuff.
Ended up in Hawaii, just kicking around, having a good time. They found him,
escorted him back.
F: They sent PIs or someone out to find
him ?
J: PIs, different church members, and
brought him to me.
F: Physically
?
J: Physically, brought him to
me.
F: Was it with his approval, or was he
kidnapped from Hawaii ?
J: I think his brain was scattered
because they had coerced him all along the way, and now this was his
thing.
F: So they brought him to you,
why ?
J: To audit [Auditing is Scientology's
form of psychotherapy].
F: To audit. Why do you think he was
gotten to sign this thing earlier before Mary Sue, what made you think he was
going to go along?
J: Because I think his sister, his two
sisters signed it, willingly signed it. They were, probably were, used to coerce
him to sign it. Diana and Suzette, who were still both in the Sea
Org.
F: How much did Diana and Suzette
get ?
J: I think they got
$50'000.
F: $50,000. Were they, did they have
attorneys that represented them ?
J: Like I say, at no point did I ever
see them having any attorneys.
F: They had no legal
counsel?
J: No. Intimidation.
F: This is for Arthur and Mary Sue.
What do you think, do you think that Suzette and Diana had
attorneys?
J: I can only speculate on that,
Lawrence, and I think the answer is no. The other two didn't, what the hell
makes them special ?
F: Do you think anybody said to them
that because they were the family and the heirs that they had complete rights to
all these assets ?
J: No. Quite to the contrary. I'll tell
you what they were told by David Miscavige because I heard these words come out
of his mouth: "Everything that L. Ron Hubbard did, he did for the church. We are
the church, not you. Therefore everything is staying right here with us." That's
the way it went.
F: Did the lawyer ever say anything to
them about their community property or state inheritance rights as the surviving
family ?
J: Silent.
F: Never said anything about a state
law or anything like that ?
J: No.
F: They did everything? Did David ever,
or Starkey ever ?
J: No, you've got to me, because this
gets frustrating. I told you exactly what happened. Raymond [Ray Mithoff] up and
dropped the bomb on her that he [L. Ron Hubbard] didn't care about her, she hung
her head and just started signing whatever they stuck under her
hand.
F: Trust me on these questions, there's
a reason for them. We'll talk about it when we're done. Did anyone tell her that
the law said that? did anyone imply that the law was not on her
side ?
J: No.
F: So they just simply said, we own
this because Hubbard did it for us, sign the document, with 12 to 17 men in
uniform standing around her an intimidating presence, screaming at
her.
J: No, everybody wasn't
?.
F: Just Miscavige.
J: Norman and Miscavige. He introduced
us, he said, these are the people in RTC, they do this, they're running things,
not you, not the family. Here's international management, Mark Jaeger, he's
running things, not you. Here's all the services, you're not part of
this.
F: Do you think the Hubbard family had
any idea that his assets were worth from $100 to $400 million ?
J: No.
F: Do you think that them receiving
$50,000 each and Mary Sue receiving $100,000 for the estate of L. Ron Hubbard,
do you think they would have done that if they had legal counsel, had there not
been people standing in their room 12-17 men, women, in uniform, and being
screamed at? Do you think they would have done that after careful
selection ?
J: I'll say this, the answer is
obvious. David Miscavige had a smile on his face for nearly a week after he
pulled that off. I mean he was happy, happy, happy.
F: He just made
$400'000'000.
J: Or more. I think it's a lot more
than that. |
